FlightLines - Air Force Times blog for airmen

Hate reflective belts?

November 1st, 2009 | Air Force Uniforms | Posted by Michelle Tan

At least 5,600 Facebook users do, and they’re using the site to protest the Air Force’s requirement that airmen wear reflective belts during hours of darkness.

The “I Hate Reflective Belts” Facebook group describes itself as a place for members of the Air Force “who see the continued use of reflective belts becoming ridiculous” and has attracted attention in the blogosphere.

“Before I had my reflective belt, I had to look both ways before crossing the street!” wrote one user.

Another wrote: “I’ll be waiting for the day when they bomb me over here and they laugh because it looks like they’ve exterminated a nest full of fireflies.”

And if you’re on Facebook, be sure to check out the photos of airmen mocking the reflective belt, including this…

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and this…

Glow in the dark

Tags: Facebook

Permalink | November 1st, 2009

Comments

Chris Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:43 pm
It’s not just during the hours of darkness… It happens during the day both inside and out.. You can’t even walk around the base on the SIDEWALK without one. You’ll get pulled over by the skycops so fast.
Tony Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 2:40 pm
I just find it crazy that situational awareness has been replaced with the false sense of security of a reflective belt. Its not about being able to be seen or not, its about people being cautious, people actually using all their senses to move around.
JIM Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Any body remember the “Jungle Jim” pif helmets? Most of the silly stuff and gee we would like to do this stuff , will go away when the Air Force does not meet enlistment and retention goals. Hang in , it will change.

Retired AF MSgt.
mick Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 3:39 pm
The belts are fine. Every edge helps in this world. I guess seat belts and motorcyclists leaving their lights on will be attacked next.
Larry Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I’m glad to see every major problem in the AF has been resolved because why else would people find time to complain about reflective belts?! They work and add another tool to the box.
Bill Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
What a pathetic thing to whine about. Is it really that big of a deal to wear one? To add to this I will say this, If you think the reflective belt gives you a false sense of safety then you are ignorant. It is there to help motorists identify you. Because believe it or not some people are dumb enough to walk out in front of a vechicle. Don’t think its true? Then come down to Sheppard AFB and see for your self. Pedestrians (airmen) are always walking into street without looking.
J Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Anyone dismissing this has clearly not been to the deployed locations right now… Leadership has made the wear of these disco belts the top, deny you entry to the chow hall, issue in the AOR. Ridiculous, pathetic, and embarassing.
Tool-hater Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Larry – looks like you are the only tool here. The belts are a useless disgrace to the uniform, a major waste of precious funds, and THE symbol of how much both the officer corps and enlisted ranks have lost confidence in the deployed leadership in Southwest Asia.
Travis Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Things we should do before worrying about whether people wear reflective belts or not:

1. Move transient aircrew from hot & noisy tents to facilities where they can get quality crew rest.
2. Finish the Cadillacs (bathrooms) that have been under construction for over three years and are now boarded up.
3. Conduct a study to determine the pedestrian injury rate before and after reflective belts to see if they actually have any benefit.
92T0 Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Speaking of tools… Seatbelts save lives (fact). Lights on motorcycles probably help (despite all the close calls I’ve had myself). Show me statistics that prove a reflective belt has protected anyone. How about a Flight Line Safety article about how a pilot avoided a bus of nuns because they had a reflective belt around the vehicle (with running lights and seatbelts of course).

Seriously. Support Social Darwinism. I know they spend lots of money on us, but if we’re dumb enough to get sliced and diced by a C-130 on the flight line, perhaps it’s better we don’t take a plane full of people with us.

I’m a member and hope the cause grows.
Adam Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 5:11 pm
i can refuel a jet a nite in trubulance with only 2 little lights, but heaven forbid im on the flight line with out a reflectivebelt on. Give me a break and worie about the big stuff
John P Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 5:46 pm
This silliness is largely propagated by underworked SNCOs who are deployed (almost exclusively to the rear) in disproportionate numbers in hopes of getting their BSMs for their next stripe.

Solution – take the 69% of deployed SNCOs who are filling a ULN tasked for someone two or more grades junior (or worse, the ULN created just for their BSM-quest) and fly them out to places like Korengal Outpost, OP Bari Alai, or COP Lowell. Perhaps there they could actually contribute to the war effort instead of impeding sanity and common sense. At the very least they would learn what the mission is and hopefully stop standing in the way of it.
ADV Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 6:26 pm
I don’t think people are so much against wearing the reflective belts as much as they are against the approach leadership has to the rule. It is pathetic that with millions of dollars of iron flying around the AOR at any given moment, leadership is more concerned with making a schedule so that Commanders and their staff can stake out at places such as the DFAC (chow hall) to “catch” as many people as possible not wearing the reflective belt or not tucking in their PT shirt.

Does our leadership not have anything better to do with their time? Are they so bored that they feel the need to be the fashion police instead of handling the real world situations occurring in their operational squadrons?

I am only speaking for myself, but I gather others would agree, when I say that I am disappointed in our leadership and how small minded they have become.

P.S. There was a poor guy up at Kandahar that got ran over and he WAS wearing his reflective belt. So much for saving lives.
Tim Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 6:47 pm
In the pre-dawn hours of a winter morning in the mid-1980s, an airman who lived in a nearby village was walking to Hahn AB in his MOPP gear. The base was holding one of its periodic “Salty Nation” exercises during which the 12-hour day shift started at 6 a.m., and it was still pitch black outside. There was snow on the ground, making trudging along in “booties” awkward, so he was walking on the road. Since the MOPP suit made him almost invisible in the darkness, the F-16 pilot driving into the base didn’t see him before smacking into him. The airman didn’t die right away, but according to a security police NCO, the impact severed a foot or hand. (I’ve forgotten which.) The pilot was very shaken up over running over and killing one of our own guys.

Our wing commander, Colonel “Tip” Clark, directed that everyone wear safety belts on MOPP gear, plus put reflective tape on the wrists and ankles of the gear as well. People working outdoors at night typically wore them as well, even when there was no exercise. Nobody else got run over.

To people who don’t like it – tough. If you don’t like wearing something that might keep people from getting run over, think about how much fun it is to write letters to the next-of-kin that their family member died for nothing. Imagine yourself as a member of a casualty notification team, coming to the home of a family about to receive the worst news ever, and all of it was preventable. And you can bet the pilot has never forgotten the sound of hitting the guy and how his car felt as it rolled over the guy’s body.

True, the airman shouldn’t have been in the road, but it could have easily happened at a crosswalk on base, and there had been plenty of close calls on base as well.

Anyone whining about safety belts really has too much time on his or her hands.
Mike Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 7:33 pm
The reflective belt is the shame of the Air Force. It’s a symbol for how risk averse we have become, while at the same time illustrating just how little faith leadership has in their people to act like adults. There’s a reason morale is abysmally low in SW Asia, and it’s because of stupid stuff like this. All the pride airmen could possibly take from actually doing their COMBAT trained job is crushed by being treated like a child, and constantly berated by leadership who is so incompetent, ineffective and out of touch that they see reflective belt wear as a major issue. Nevermind that per AFCENT AFI it’s not even required in PT gear. Nevermind that we learned to look both ways before crossing the street when we were in pre-kindergarten. Nevermind that very rarely within the confines of the base do we even walk across roads. Nevermind that vehicles aren’t allowed to travel fast enough on base to hurt you even if it WERE to hit you. Nevermind that there’s not one documented case of someone being saved by wearing a belt when he otherwise would have been injured.

The reflective belt: the reason the US Air Force is the laughing stock of the entire COALITION.
Fish Man Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 9:55 pm
It is rediculous how bad it has gotten. No personal accountability. It is just another CYA for commanders in case someone gets hurt. “Did he have his belt on”? “Good I’m covered”.

If commanders are going to make people wear a disco belt while in uniform, they should take it all the way and make everyone walking on base at night wear one.

Better yet, take it further. Techinically, we are supposed to wear all PPE while riding a motorcycle off base. Why not all military wear their disco belts off base during hours of darkness.
Finch Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Another tool in the box? Lets see how many dumb Military cliche’s we can use to try and justify another waste of money, time, and Soldiers dignity.
Bob Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 10:26 pm
The reason the air force dumped tons of money into the new reflective pt gear was so that we didnt need reflective belts! Well guess what, the base im at requires you to where a reflective belt with the pt gear and if you have a backpack you have to have one around it too! The other day they were refusing soldiers food if they didnt have a reflective belt on! WTF is the military coming to. This is a god D@m^ joke!
DespiseTheDeid Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:22 pm
I’ve seen Marines who have just got in from fighting downrange get turned away from the chow hall because no reflective belts. Tell me that doesn’t say it all. Our leadership has lost what’s important. We are over here to win a war. Enough with all the rules that don’t help accomplish our mission. Reflective belts, saluting in PTs, and tucked shirts when working out are just a few that we need to stop wasting time to enforce.
Chris Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:22 pm
I was stationed at base X when there was actually a person ran over while she was wearing a reflective belt…dark and rainy but she still got hit. Also, why must I wear a belt riding my motorcycle during the DAYTIME??? Oh well…you’ll never stop getting treated like an 8 year old until you retire I guess.
Jeff Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:26 pm
They spent 2 billion dollars on new uniforms that provide us cutting edge high tech camoflage and we ruin it with a reflective belt. Go figure!
First Sergeant Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:41 am
The AF has had reflective belts for years. When I was in SouthEast Asia in 72 we had a reflective plus sign SEWN on the back of our jackets! Made an excellent target, so most of us wore t-shirts while working at night. At least you can take the belt off during a contingency. BTW, the army requires them too. Here at Redstone Arsenal, all the GIs who are walking or marching formations are wearing reflective belts!
mike Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:30 am
The belt is only the start. Mandatory-wear items in the works: reflective wrist- and ankle-bands, and hats with antenna-like LEDs sprouting out of them. Outdoor Christmas trees will not be permitted to have lights to prevent people from confusing them with “airmen.”
Adam Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 5:00 am
Stop crying about wearing something that could save your life. it’s takes two seconds to put on and once it’s on, it’s no big deal. If you don’t like protective items while in uniform, i think we should take away hearing protection, eye protection, seat belts in vehicles, steel toe boots, work gloves and sunglasses. All these items are there to protect you just like a reflective belt.
Rufus Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 7:44 am
Looks like things are still fine in the Air Force. The only important thing to complain about seems to be reflective belts.
DonnieB Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:00 am
The belts are to be worn for YOUR safety. I can see the problem being the troops are “hammered, written-up, chastised, burned” by the typical power-hungry-QA Inspector that is no more qualified than a feather plucker at a turkey farm!!…If the units would Promote Safety rather than Force it, maybe compliance and moral world improve..If someone is injured as a result of not being seen in the dark with no reflective beltseen , do a line of duty determination and hand them the bill for medical services and or withhold death benefits as the result of their carelessness.
Wpnsldr Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:14 am
Wow…guess we need to replace the reflective belts with diapers. And the first time someone gets hit on a dark street or around a badly lit building, the bandwaggonners led by the Air Force Enquirer will be screaming about why the Big Bad supervisors didn’t do more to protect that poor Airman that didn’t know any better. Want to know we have ridiculous requirements? Keep reading this blog from all of the barracks and flying lawyers…
Critch Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:46 am
The folks in charge of the AF really need to get the big things done and let the little things take care of themselves. They have allowed the belt issue to get to the silly point.
Chris Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:46 am
Mick,

Seat belts and Motorcycle headlights are 2 things that are actually useful and work well to save lives. Mandating that a reflective belt be worn during daylight hours while walking on the sidewalk on a military post is a complete loss of mission focus. If in a deployed location, we have enough people available to walk the streets and monitor the chow halls for people wearing their reflective belts, then there are too many people there. We are there fighting a war against the enemy’s and the Shoes are waging war on their own troops. Let our boys do the fighting without all this queepy BS. A reflective belt isn’t going to win the war, it’s just going to help the enemy locate us easier at night.
Scott Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:55 am
George Patton said, “If you can’t get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?” It’s not an unlawful, immoral order. Get over it. Wear the belt and get back to the mission. I can’t believe I felt compelled to spend time on you folks to have to tell you this. You will continue to badmouth the AF and leadership on petty things like this instead of worrying about how your role is critical to our total success.
Ryan Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:50 am
i feel that too many people posting on this have lost sight of the point of this facebook group. posters such as chris (reply #29) have the right idea.
reflective belts during hours of darkness, in vehicle movement areas/roads or on the flightline where aircraft and vehicles are actually moving = sensible, and understandable.
turning away hungry airmen from a chow hall in BROAD DAYLIGHT, away from roads and vehicles = a complete loss of mission focus on the part of some.
will i follow the rules until they change? of course. will i continue to speak out about how pointless this rampant loss of common sense is taking away from the real point of deploying to Southwest Asia? Absolutely.

and too the people who have commented on how a reflective belt is akin to seatbelts, hearing protection, sunglasses, etc, do you wear your sunglasses and hearing protection when you are sitting in your office at the MPF? is your office chair equipped with a seatbelt? apples and oranges, not a valid comparison whatsoever.
Common Sense Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Hey! Common Sense here. Just wanted to say that I am against reflective belts too! Since the Air Force leadership doesn’t seem to want Airmen to use me anymore, I am out of a job! So until leadership starts to treat Airmen as adults and stops trying to get pointless OPR bullets, then I won’t be around!
Justin Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
What study was done to determine the need for reflective belts? Were runners just getting run over left and right prior to these dumb things?
Adam Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Ryan post (31) it is not apples and oranges. what you said makes no sense. if you are trying to compare the desk jockies and the guys how work outside it doesn’t matter on these items, they are all items that protect you. doesn’t matter if you sit behind a desk or if you really work for a living turning a wrench.
Ryan Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:04 pm
you missed the point. wearing reflective belts in areas where you are likely to be around vehicles or aircraft, at night, makes sense. wearing hearing protection around aircraft makes sense. wearing sunglasses outside, during daylight, makes sense, all of which are irrespective of your actual job, be it in an office, a cockpit, or on the flightline turning wrenches.

what does not make sense, however, is requiring people to wear a peice of PPE outside where it is useful and appropriate, for the same reason that you wouldnt wear sunglasses at night, or hearing protection in a quiet office. what makes equally as little sense (and the real reason reason people are so pissed off), is being so concerned about it that you waste time and effort and a deployment by enforcing it where it isn’t appropriate, and in doing so waste others’ time and effort and contribute to low morale. THAT makes no sense.
Matt Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:09 pm
I CANNOT believe the number of boot-licking brown nosers that have actually commented on here SUPPORTING the reflective belt, and the total retardedness surrounding it. There’s a time and place for everything, and nightime on the flightline makes sense, but everything else is classic Air Force-knee-jerk-overreaction.

I myself served in Iraq in a combat-related role, and for all of you E-7+, let me tell you that your uniform Nazi days won’t be remembered fondly. There’s nothing like spending the day, or two days, outside the wire (I hate that term by the way), only to come back and get chastised for lack of a reflective belt, or dirty uniform. I’m thinking most of you belt lovers who are obviously devoid of all common sense will die old and alone with a handful of medals for doing absolutely NOTHING that contributes to the war, while the real men joined career fields that actually carry weapons.

The belt issue is indicative of a higher problem with the Air Force – the good, talented, intelligent people get out and go to the civilian sector, and we’re left with a bunch of mindless dirtbags in the enlisted corps.
Hawaii Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:31 pm
the first person to die in dessert storm was a flightline maintainer who fell asleep on the flightline and was runned over by a vehicle because he did not have a reflecter belt…

the second person that died in dessert storm was the idiot that wore his reflector belt and got shot by the enemy sniper…
matt Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Helmets protect people too, as well as knee pads, wrist guards and elbow pads. and cups.

All of these things would just take a second to put on. Its about time we all had to wear them on a daily basis.

And they should all be blue and reflective.
Morgan Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Once again the brilliant minds that turn the AF cog have made another rule that they don’t have to live by…get rid of the belts, the waste of time and money inspections, the pansy yes men, and lets get back to being the warriors we once were..improvise, adapt, or retire…stop the stupidity
Mark Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Ridiculous to complain about. If people are stupic enough to walk out in front of a car at night then thin the Gene pool, but if you really want to wear it fine. The idea of wearing it during the day mandated 24/7 by the 62AW McChord AFB wing commander, even inside is ridiculous. When the old retirees on a sunny day ask why in the heck am I wearing the belt, I’m embarrased to even talk about it. Fine at night but 24/7 and indoors. Come on.
Dennis Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Say whatever you will about complaining troops and how troops need to suck it up and drive on but these belts are wiggedy wizack…
Skeet Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:50 pm
The AF has lost it’s mind. I’ve come back from flying a twelve hour combat mission (sans the reflective belt) only to be denied food at the chow hall thanks to a first sergeant posted at the door.

It’s truly a sad situation when a leader sees the lack of a reflective belt as authority for them to deny food to another human being, especially when that person just got back from doing the job outside the wire.

Reality check…no matter what precautions you take, accidents happen. But rest easy because most airmen learned to look both ways before crossing the street well before they every joined the military.
Chris Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:59 pm
To the post by Tim which is number 14. Here’s the while problem with your logic. The kid was WALKING IN THE ROAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My reflective belt won’t stop the car that’s pointed at me because I’m too dumb not to walk where cars are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You’re a moron and don’t see the point of this group. Turning people away from a Chow Hall because they don’t have the reflective belt on is the absolute pinnacle of stupidity, and yet the Wing CC at the ‘Deid supports the EFSS/CC moron who made the policy.

And for Adam on post 25, your an idiot too. If I’m relying on my reflective belt to save my life, then maybe, just maybe I should believe in Darwin’s theory and bite the big one because I don’t deserve to pass along my genes. Here’s the kicker…..I returned from a deployment this year after 4 MONTHS of NEVER wearing my reflective belt….EVEN THOUGH IT WAS MANDATORY. Guess how many times I almost got hit by any traffic, airplane or vehicle????? “0″
John Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 12:00 am
I’m a USAF pilot who separated this year in large part because of the poorly placed focus of leadership. What the AF Times and most casual readers see as a “whiny” AF personnel complaining about something silly is actually a far more profound issue. This issue is not about reflective belts. It IS about all of the unimportant items that have evolved into the highest of priorities, taking effort, money, and energy that should be spent on killing enemies, training to kill enemies, and performing our primary duties excellently.

Reflective belt policy and enforcement is just one of many over-the-top examples where SNCOs, FGOs, and Generals have formulated, signed, and enforced standards that are nothing short of wasting the skills of our AF personnel, abuse of rank to create policy that need not exist in the first place. This is fraudulent leadership.

Go over to baseops.net and read the forum threads about “Leadership at the Deid.” You’ll see literally hundreds of examples of misplaced priorities: colonels speeding excessively on the ramp to inform a pilot that he should be wearing a reflective belt, Master Sergeants unprofessionally grabbing lunch trays from Lieutenants because they were ordered not to allow anyone to eat who is not in a reflective belt, security forces issuing people tickets for going 15mph at 3AM when no other traffic is on the road, IGs and wings making mandatory daytime wear of reflective belts the priority during CORIs, FGO commanders threatening to call police and have airmen ARRESTED for wearing Crocs on the airman’s first day at the Deid, etc. This doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of “leadership’s” terribly misplaced priorities.

WHAT ABOUT THE MISSION? As any operator can tell you, the forward locations where no REMFs exist are the most productive assignments of their lives. No worthless SNCOs are harassing people about sunglasses and belts. No shoeclerk officers are playing politics or trying to demonstrate their “power” by creating useless policy that hinders efficiency. No generals are getting bombarded with, then signing, new policy MFRs thought up by bored underlings trying to figure out ways to get deployed OPR/EPR bullets because they have no useful function in theater.

Bottom Line: “I Hate Reflective Belts” is a grassroots cry for leadership to pull their heads out of their asses, pay attention to the ridiculous policy MFRs they sign, pay attention to where SNCOs and FGOs put focus, and CHANGE things for the better. Get rid of the bull crap and focus on the mission! The mission is an 18 year old with an M4 outside the wire. The mission is a captain flying a plane full of bombs. Why is this so difficult for people to understand, and why does leadership fail to help airmen understand?
Nate Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 12:56 am
Hopefully, we’ll have to wear protective helmets while walking.
Fired Wing Commander Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 1:00 am
If just one ol’ reflective belt adds to our safety, then why stop there? Aren’t we letting ourselves and fellow Airmen down if we don’t explore other, even more aggressive options to increase our reflectiveness?

Incredible number of Increased Reflectively Options (IROs) out there, to include big hats, an Elvis-sytle belt buckle, neon / reflective shoe laces … and, of course, the reflective belt bandolier. There’s really only one way ahead …

——————— REFLECTIVE DIAPERS ———————

(BTW … loved the BSM-quest comment above. How many of the Reflective Guard Patrol would mouth this dribble while within range … of both the enemy and a combat-seasoned fist)
Gerard Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 1:46 am
The problem here is an apparent serious loss of focus on the core mission by leadership. It’s demolarlizing to see a poor application or total lack of common sense WRT writing and enforcing uniform standards in the AOR. As has been stated, it makes absolutely no sense to require reflective belt wear in the day time or indoors. Furthermore, denying service for a minor rule infraction is an extreme and disproportionate enforcement method. We are (or should be) too busy with the big things like winning the war to be so concerned with such little things.
John Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 4:03 am
No one ever asks the drunks walking home from bar row to wear them, why should you have to wear one while sober?
bob Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 4:04 am
im always required to remove all non essential objects before i fly, and remember to grab the belt before i leave a 12 hour day of flying is the last thing on my mind. whats worse is when you’re required to wear one on the desert. being a flyer near the edge of the fence, im constantly on teh flightline. im not going to highlight myself for the hodgies to pick out. god forbid, i get scrambled, forget to take it off, get shot down or have to PL and forget i have a beacon strapped around my waist. i NEVER wear my belt even when they say its required there. if people are stupid enough to step out in traffic without looking, they deserve to be hit.
Escort Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 5:08 am
Really!!! don’t we have bigger problems here than the damn reflective belts. Just wear it and shut it.
Mike Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 5:27 am
Seriously, the US military as a whole caters to the “lowest common denominator.” If you can’t see this forest for its trees, you are jaded. We’ve lost focus on the big picture in order to busy ourselves with minutiae like this. We need to give our folks credit for being adults and let natural selection sort the rest out…
JUKE179r Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 6:09 am
As a SNCO I will say what is being told to me “it is for good order, discipline and safety”.
As you were.
Chris Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 7:31 am
Who here walked to school or had to stand at a bus stop for 8 years as a kid in school?? *raises hand*

Who here was hit by a car or school bus while walking to school or standing at a bus stop for those 8 years? *chirp chirp*

So as a society we can trust our middle school and high school children to walk down dark streets or stand at unlit bus stops for 8 years but our adult men and women, trained military professionals are being forced to wear RBs because 1 unfortunate incident?

How bout this, I’ll give in to the RB policy but only if it were changed to “Airmen who are walking on the road or are just too inebriated to notice the headlights coming at them while crossing the street should be subject to to wearing RB’s during the hours of darkness.” If a car hits a pedestrian on base (where the avg speed limit is 25mph) during day light hours, that’s a major fail on part of the driver.
Bryan Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Commanders need to understand how contradictory messages destroy morale. To motivate the troops, they like to talk about how the extraordinary bravery, intelligence, initiative, intelligence, etc of our war-fighters. Then, in their very next breath they treat these same warriors with more over-protective condescension than mom used when we were 5 years old. Do you want warriors or schoolchildren? Make up your mind.
Brock Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Maybe we should take a CBT or training class on how to properly wear reflective belts or have a mass briefing. How high or low they can be around our waist. It’s like wearing a glow in the dark condom to make sure we are having safe sex.
Toolshed Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Just the other night, at Al Udeid, a full bird Colonel and a CMSgt were standing ouside of the CC chow hall, ensuring everyone entering the chow hall had 360 dgrees of visibility.
You will be denied service if you do not have a reflective belt on INSIDE of the chow hall. I wish I had that kind of time!

We will win this war, one reflective belt at a time!
Mike Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Adam, the “big stuff” you should worry about is proper grammar. Seriously bro, take an English class or two. Let me help you out a little bit.

i = I
nite = night
trubulance = turbulence
im = I’m
reflectivebelt = reflective belt
worie = worry

Reflective belts do seem silly, but the point is that they save lives. I can think of several times in Iraq and/or Afghanistan where, after returning from a long patrol, I almost did not see a person walking near the road. Had that person actually been wearing a reflective belt, I would have seen him with more than enough time to react. This almost resulted in serious injury or death to that person.

My point is this. Reflective belts do in fact serve a useful purpose. At times that purpose is not known, and others that purpose doesn’t make sense at all, (even I agree that a reflective belt at noon in an office is just obsurd). But it is a requirement, so how about we all quit complaining about it and just deal with it. Besides, what is it hurting? Your ego?
Sam Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Reflective belts have come to symbolize the utter lack of mission focus from our deployed leadership. I have no problem telling my crew to wear a RB when near traffic at night in a location without danger of hostile action. I have a major problem telling my crew to wear a reflective belt indoors during the day! Forcing me to enforce stupid rules waters down my credibility as a leader, which in turn makes leading men into combat more difficult.

Additionally, RB have become a way for SNCOs to justify a total lack of professionalism in dealing with CGOs. Instead of politley reminding a new LT to bring his belt next time, SNCOs at several OIF locations I’ve been to accost in a loud and disrespectful manner any junior officer who forgets his RB, or simply doesn’t wear it during the day because it’s senseless. Again, a total fail on the part of senior leadership for allowing this environment to fester at the lower levels.

And why are we talking about this issue instead of how best to utilize airpower to defeat the enemy and support the ground troops? We’re talking about this because senior leadership has decided to focus on this and other petty uniform issues, leaving the warfighting to captains and majors. Of course there are exceptions, but anyone who has deployed recently with an ops unit knows wing leadership spends more time sending emails about this nonsense than supporting the actual fight.
John Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Post #30 (Scott),
I would put money that you are not and never have been an operator, so to use General Patton’s quote of saluting and wearing properly is ridiculous. He is probably puking and rolling over in his grave at the thought that SNCOs, First Shirts, “Desert Diamonds,” Chiefs, and even Full colonels are roaming around base trying to fix reflective belt errors, spending an inordinate amount of time and energy on something that shouldn’t exist in the first place!

Saluting is about chain of command and showing proper customs and courtesies, something infantry need in order to fight, win, and survive. Most Air Force personnel are sorely lacking in customs and courtesies. All these bored, lazy, and misdirected NCOs should put emphasis on customs and courtesies and excelling at our primary duties, not whether or not someone can eat because he isn’t wearing a reflective belt.

Wearing proper attire means having serviceable gear worn at appropriate times. It doesn’t mean ironing our iron-less clothing, wearing reflective belts inside or during the day. It does mean giving us ABUs that can be worn in combat! USAF “ABUs” are trashed and replaced by real uniforms by our real operators like JTACs. Know why? Because our “battle” uniforms have no tactical design whatsoever. Where do reflective belts fit in? No where. They have exactly zero utility, yet are given more attention by our fearless Diamond Desert assclowns than the mission gets.

How about you save the General Patton quotes for infantry commanders and operators that actually understand what he means. Go back to your cubicle and stay the hell out of the way of those of us trying to do the mission.
Mik Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Predictably, the AF Times got it wrong. The JOKE is that at many locations it is mandatory during DAYLIGHT hours.
stuck @ Pope South Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 11:40 am
if a reflective belt can’t save a life then let’s move to a reflective vest. It saves my backpacks life every day and night when I ride my motorcycle on base. But hay, it take a smart man with a college degree to make those kind of major decisions.
Steve Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I think comment 61, 46, and others on here have it about correct. Our marvelous Air Force isn’t trying to hinder progress, they just haven’t gone far enough with it. What we need are strobe lights on our hats (or reflective helmet, whichever they decide) that work constantly so we can be seen in any weather, day or night, and don’t have to worry about someone not having a full unrestricted 360 degree view of us. There would be no more worry in case some individuals decide to walk in the road again. It also has another feature. It would allow on and off base protection. We live in dangerous times people. Dangerous times call for dangerous measures. (Just ask motorcycle riders. They have to deal with this issue ‘and more’)
LM Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Talked to a Marine captain today, who was dumbfounded and flabbergasted that we have to wear reflective belts on utility uniforms, inside, and in daylight. He says his base’s policy is for everyone to wear reflective belts when doing nighttime PT. That’s the only time. Their PT uniforms aren’t reflective like ours, otherwise they would never wear reflective belts. Yes, our leadership has lost focus big time. Still think this is an overreaction or that leadership really doesn’t spend much time on the issue? Check this out, and then tell me it isn’t a colossal waste of time for squadron commanders and other base leadership to be patrolling the base looking for reflective belt offenders while waging a war in a deployed location:
LM Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Shortened in order for blog to accept post.

—–Original Message—–
From: Col USAF AFCENT 379 AEW/CV
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009
To: 379 AEW Commanders; 379 AEW Group Commanders; 379 AEW Group Deputy Commander; 379 AEW Group Leadership; 379 AEW Squadron Commanders; AUAB Chiefs
Cc: 379 AEW/CCC Command Chief Master Sergeant;
Subject: Uniform/Safety enforcement
ALCON,
I am ordering the 379 AEW GP/CCs, GP/CDs, SQ/CCs, SQ/DOs and Chiefs to begin a random effort towards enforcement of uniform and safety standards.
I will not micromanage this to a time and day. What I would like (expect) to see is that you work amongst yourselves to start a random effort at each of the DFACs, gyms, the DEL and the BXs (for that matter, any base facility). What this should look like is a Force Protection RAM where on different nights, at different times and at different locations we have leadership in place to enforce safety (reflective belts) and uniform standards. From the entrances of these facilities, as folks come in, simply reinforce the standards by requiring compliance (uniform or safety) before they will be allowed to use that particular base facility (i.e. “go back and get your reflective belt or go back and get into proper uniform”). Compliance with these requirements is a direct order from the Installation Commander.

V/R
Col USAF
Vice Commander, 379th Air Expeditionary Wing
Concerned Airman Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
This is not simply about doing something uncomfortable or inconvenient; we all do that on a regular basis in the military – exercising, PT tests, wearing gas masks, training, 18 hour days, getting shot at while executing the mission outside the base confines, etc. This is about the credibility of the so-called leadership of today’s Air Force (specifically in Southwest Asia).
Following rules and/or wearing the reflective belt is not the part that everyone has a problem with. It is the loss of mission focus. People FORGET to do little things all the time. I personally don’t wear my belt indoors because it HURTS MY BACK when the plastic presses against the metal-back chair I sit in all day. In turn, I occasionally forget to grab it while going to the bathroom or dining hall. My career criminal record consists of two speeding tickets over the past 15 years, now I am made to feel like a criminal every time I get stopped and questioned by an airman trying to apply “spot corrections” to my lack of reflective belt. If I honestly forget to wear it to the dining hall, I can’t eat, and I am made to feel worse than a criminal. I can’t even use the restroom without having it on, because they are now posting guards outside of the “Cadillac’s” to check for belts.
This has gone too far and the leadership has simply lost all credibility in the eyes of the greater Air Force.
Barney Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
All of you SNCOs out there spouting off about how reflective belts save lives need to put a sock in it.
We are talking about having to wear these things indoors! I don’t know about your office, but mine has little to no vehicular traffic running through it. So, why am I being force to wear it? Basically, the AF this we are all too stupid to know when put on something reflective. Therefore, they use the “We are dealing with 6 year olds” technique and just have us were them all the time so there is no confusion.
Never in my life have been more embarrassed to be in the AF than the day I watched the wing leadership stand in a formation honoring the victims of 9-11, and they were all wearing reflective belts in broad daylight. It looked very unprofessional, especially for those in blues, wearing a pink one.
AF Jim Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Mike (post 57), Escort (post 50), et al, you are part of the problem and would better serve the military if you either took a look at the bigger picture or removed yourself permanently from military affairs. This is not about “saving lives” or just sucking it up and wearing the damn reflective belt. The reflective belt is of little consequence and is only a minor symbol. This is a big problem with upper management.

Last week, in direct relation to the string of horrible fatal news coming from Afghanistan, over THIRTY CASKETS of our fallen warriors passed through our large base in Southwest Asia on their final journey home. LESS THAN 12 HOURS LATER, a full colonel sent out an email to all of the First Sergeants and squadron commanders, asking them to take time away from conducting their respective military operations and to stand guard outside of all base facilities – the gyms, dining halls, exchanges, and even the outdoor bathrooms – to enforce reflective belt policy. The email prefaced that this was to comply with Wing Commander policy. This shows not only a major loss of mission focus but a CRISIS OF LEADERSHIP out here.

I have heard countless first-hand stories of the reflective belt issue being brought to the senior lederships personal attention during meetings with squadron commanders, senior enlisted meetings, company grade officer meetings, and even during the base indoctrination briefings that the Wing Commander himself speaks at. The senior leadership has shown a blatant disregard for the concerns, logic, and common sense of all the airman, junior officers, senior enlisted, and squadron commanders whom these ludicrous policies affect. This is a serious concern and a LOSS OF CONFIDENCE in the leadership out here. This deserves NATIONAL ATTENTION, because lives really are at risk here!

Again, every single airman, soldier, sailor and marine that I know and work with in the military has no problem doing what they are told and wearing what is necessary to stay safe and accomplish the mission. There are simply no data, facts, or proof that the reflective belt policy “saves lives” or keeps airmen safer. In my opinion (and obviously in the opinion of the 8,000, and counting, people who joined the Facebook group in the past week), the tradeoffs of devastating morale and humiliating all those in uniform who are made to wear the reflective belt, are simply not worth it, because it makes us a less effective fighting force.
Viper Pilot Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
For all of you SNCO’s, FGO, etc that just don’t get it, please go back up and re-read post #44. Well said John.

For those of you too lazy to scroll back up, here’s John’s final paragraph

“Bottom Line: “I Hate Reflective Belts” is a grassroots cry for leadership to pull their heads out of their asses, pay attention to the ridiculous policy MFRs they sign, pay attention to where SNCOs and FGOs put focus, and CHANGE things for the better. Get rid of the bull crap and focus on the mission! The mission is an 18 year old with an M4 outside the wire. The mission is a captain flying a plane full of bombs. Why is this so difficult for people to understand, and why does leadership fail to help airmen understand?

Shack.
MPK Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
First off, let me say that this response comes from an ex-Sgt, Crew Chief, who has been out of the AF for over fifteen years – so I haven’t been to the ‘Died, but I was deployed to the airbase at the Intl airport in Doha during 90-91. We were the first US military in the country.

Sounds like someone who has realized that they don’t have much to do with the real mission has let their authority go to their heads. While safety is, of course, important a lot of the things that are listed here just don’t make sense, it’s the mission that matters.

“Daddy, what did you do in the war?”
“Son, I was one of the most important people on base. I kept the dirty, sweaty people from eating at the ‘dining facility’. We can’t allow ‘that type’ in here, they might offend the clean personnel and finance people… Sure, I was misunderstood, but my SVS commander saw my true value, and put me in for this shiny Bronze Star.”

I spent seven months in Doha, wearing Hawaiian shirts, shorts and flip-flops off duty, eating pistachios and drinking smuggled rum – maybe not the ‘Yankee Air Pirate’ of SEA (of course, as a maintainer, my feet stayed on the ground) but I gave it my best shot. On duty, I worked phase and the flightline wearing a set of non-steeltoed jungle boots, wearing mail-order desert BDU’s with no patches, rank, name or US Air Force tapes and my boonie hat rolled up like a cowboy, and you know what? Our commander said “Mike, I don’t care what rank you are, or what your uniform looks like, what I care about is having our jets ready to fly each morning.”

Our mission as maintainers was to support the pilots that we sent north each day of the war, to give them the best aircraft that we could to give them the best chance of coming back to us each night, and every minute we were there to support the two that we had to leave in Iraq as POW’s until the war ended. That was the only mission that was important, not supporting some pencil-pushing want-to-be authority figure on an ego trip.

Sorry if this post isn’t politically correct, but it’s the MISSION that matters. Those of you who are over there fighting for all of us who are safe at home might not be able to directly go out and win this war for us, but all of us losing sight of the real mission could certainly lose it.
Steve Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
This is old,old ,old. When I arrived in Da Nang I was instructed to get a vertical reflective swen on the front and a vertical and horizontal on the back of each uniform shirt (jungle fatigues) that I would be wearing at night on the flight line. I refused pointing out that I really did not think that putting cross hairs on my back were the way to go in a combat area where we did catch occaisional fire from off base. Many shirts quickly lost the reflective tape after that.

I retired in “91″

I do not beleive that the tape or the reflective belts ever did that much to help as much as common sense and awareness of your surroundings do. Especially in a combat theater.
Barney Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
I do not know how many times I have had to explain to support personnel is SW Asia that the Air Force sent me here to conduct combat operations, not give them something to do! Why the AF allows support and maintenance to drive operations is beyond me. If you are a support troop, support the mission! It is that simple!
4FanTrashcanIP Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
Wearing the reflective belt isn’t really the issue. The belt has become a symbol of leadership that has become obsessed with minor issues. If we had a common-sense attitude towards reflective belts and uniform issues, no one would care.

To those who carp “just wear the belt and stop whining”, it makes me really mad that you feel it’s just about “inconvenience”. It’s not. I’ll challenge those of you writing those “suck it up” posts to go sit in a 140 degree cockpit of an airplane, put on gloves, a helmet and body armor, with a sidearm strapped to your leg, then tighten down your harness (ie seat belt), with sweat running down your face the whole time. And do it day in and day out…those of you that think this issue is about inconvenience need to think about that while you sit in your air conditioned office in the AOR.

I do dozens of unpleasant, crappy things every day and I don’t whine or complain about it. Why? Because I’m trusted to do the right thing, and I don’t have flight line police running up to my airplane to ensure we’re all strapped in right, and wearing the right gear.

But step off the flight line and you’ve got first shirts and SNCOs along with a multitude of others preventing people from eating or using the latrine for minor uniform issues. People who were trusted with operating multi-million dollar aircraft or trusted with finding and killing bad guys are turned away for various minor discrepancies that really have little or no impact on whether the mission gets done or not.

Worse, leadership is taking time out of their day to run around and police minor issues…and yes, this actually has impeded the mission at times. For example, during an “exercise” in the AOR, an alert crew was not allowed to use the latrine facilities to get showered and ready once they were alerted to go fly.

Another example…a crew was awaiting maintenance on their aircraft decided to go get some hot chow. They arrived, sans patches (per AOR rules) and were not allowed to eat, because they weren’t “in uniform” without their patches.

It’s idiotic and insane policies like that which have led to Facebook groups like “I hate reflective belts”, not the belts themselves. I repeat, it’s NOT THE BELTS, it’s the way the policies are enforced to insane proportions.
Rabble Rouser Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 5:27 am
have to wear my reflective belt…ok. Inside, outside, durring daylight…ok. Those are my orders and being a profesional I’ll do it, but it still doesn’t meen that it is not a complete lack of mission focus. Wearing it at night or inclement weather on the flight line makes perfect sense and wearing it on a base with poor lighting and highspeed traffic…I get. Other than the argument “because you’re ordered to” how does wearing in a daytime or inside make sense?
Let’s face it we have one of the brightest enlisted forces in hystory. We are highly encouraged to obtain a college education and are taught to constintly find better ways to accomplish the mission. This shut up and color mentality that some of the other have posted goes against the very essance that makes our Air Force great. There are times when we need to blindly follow orders…most of us understand this, normally it is time sensitve situations that require this. This is not one of those situations.
It’s not so much the actual wearing of the disco belt that upsets people sense of common sense. It is the ammount of time and detraction from the real mission. ..Fly, Fight, and Win. Why are these SNCO’s spending so much time from their mission focused duty location, enforcing such a non mission focused standard? Instead of using that time ensuring that I am wearing my reflective belt durring daytime hours why are they not ensuring bombs are being loaded correctly, planes are being fixed properly, or cargo loaded saftly? Why are our Senior leaders spending so much time on this issue when there are so many more issues that need solving. Bottom line time is finite and the more time we spend on this is less time we spend on winning this war. So please, I’ll follow these rules, I’ll jump in circles if we are ordered so let me get back to my real duty… you know ensuring our National Security.
JL Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Some of you are completely missing the point. The Facebook group really has nothing to do with reflective belts at all. You could have named it “I hate PT gear,” or “I hate tucking my shirt in,” or any other name you can think of. Do you people really think that nearly 10,000 people (so far) would be angry enough about just a belt to join a group in protest?

Reflective belts are simply the most visible symbol of what many AF members perceive are major problems developing in our service. Simply stated, the focus on reflective belts and the gestapo-like manner in which their required wear is enforced highlights how focus has been drawn away from the mission and instead toward trivial things like those damn belts. If two people have enough time to sit at the entrance of a chow hall checking for belts, then one of them can do the job that both were deployed to do. Send the other guy home and save our taxpayers some money. If an O-6 is spending time dealing with reflective belts, he’s not working on winning a war. THAT is a tremendous failure of leadership.

I’m OK with a policy requiring reflective belt use, however, if we continue to treat our Airmen like children, they’ll continue to act like Children. How about we treat them like adults, allow the majority to act like adults, and punish those who act like children INDIVIDUALLY?
Mike Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Get over it! Those SNCOs and CGOs probably agree with everyone that the wear of reflective belts in the Chow hall is stupid. But they are tasked with the job of enforcment. I don’t know how many times I heard Airmen complain about being treated like a child (Don’t drink and drive) just to have them get arrested for a DUI or fight or something that would make SNCOs waste alot of manhours babysitting for manditory appointments etc… Time that could be spent on the mission. As for Barney entry 68. You don’t understand why the AF allows Maintenance and Support drive the mission. You are going to be the one that makes the stupid policies when you get to a higher level of responsibilities. Learn that there is more to the military than just “Strapping on a jet”. Ops get to borrow a A/C from its Crew Chiefs for a few hours. The maintainers spend 100 times the hours fixing what you broke. Over Gs come to mind. I can’t fully speak for Support but you would complain if there wasn’t any fuel for the A/C or food for yourself. Remember the issue was reflective belts not how Ops is more important than the rest of the world.
LilBuddy Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 11:06 am
It’s called Dissonance. Not wearing a Belt when it doesn’t make sense is today’s version of the Vietnam era out-of-regs mustache. That takes too long to grow, has already been sported at the ‘died years ago- and may be confused with March madness.

Support of the belt 24×7 including no chow hall or restroom access? Great for the passive-aggressive drones out there.
Todd007 retired MSgt Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
I used my reflective belt 1 time and not even close to the flightline. My assigned “rental” vehicle broke down in Germany at night while I was driving back from Hungary. I used the belt and a flashlight and walked to the next roadside call box. The belt helped a little as cars were going pretty GD fast (oh yeah, i walked outside the guardrails!)
Mike Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
A big problem with today’s Air Force is that the majority of the know-nothing pencil peckers in right now crow about “the mission” without actually even realizing what the mission is. The Mission (capital T, capital M) is putting bombs on people who need killing and need their stuff broken. EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING else that does not directly involve killing people and breaking their stuff is NOT the mission, it is SUPPORTING the mission. The tanker guy puts gas on the plane the drops the bombs that kill people and break their stuff. The ISR guy finds the people that need killing and stuff that needs breaking. The maintainers make sure the airplanes can fly to kill people and break their stuff.

Finance, services, personnel, etc are all there SUPPORTING The Mission, but they seem to have lost sight of it. They construe their job as being the mission itself, where it is not. Their job is to ensure the people who ARE doing the mission are properly paid, rested, fed, equipped, and whatnot to go out and perform The Mission, or their role of supporting The Mission.

EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING in the Air Force should be weighed against what it does to either support or detract from the ability of our force to kill people and break their stuff. If it does not provide DIRECT benefit to the aforementioned mission, it needs to be de-prioritized, if not shed altogether. Tucking in your PT shirt? YGBFSM. Reflective belts indoors during the day? GTFOH! If you think such things are important, you need to re-evaluate what you do for a living, because you clearly have NO idea.
Doc Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Mike Post # 78 You can’t get some to help kill and break someone elses stuff, if you can’t get them to do the little things like wearing the uniform properly. If you have a problem with the rules and regulations, get out. I am tired of babysitting a bunch of “chairforce fat asses” who bitch about every little thing that takes them away from their Play Station or internet surfing.
Toolshed Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Fellow Shirts,

This is out of control. Still getting push back from different angles.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/flightlines/2009/11/01/hate-reflective-belts/

***** *. ******, SMSgt, USAF

First Sergeant, 379 EAMXS

How I came to know about this website.
/Not a shirt
//Typical Deid mentality
///Very thankful for sites that allow us to voice our opinion
W Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
To #30 “Scott”:
Brother, you missed the boat entirely on Patton’s intent in that statement. If the troops don’t take you seriously as a leader because you have wasted the respect you have earned and are due your position, then YOU have failed as a leader. 10,000 servicemen and women seem to think leadership have started going off the rails with regards to the amount of focus placed on reflective belts, PT shirts tucked in even when working out, etc.

It is a lawful order and, with the exception of a few true believers, everyone is still complying with the asinine requirements as good airmen should. But in 6 years and 67 days, my active duty service commitment is up and I will gladly take my multi-million dollar flying education out on the free market unless some big changes in the AF occur. Funny thing is, I would have signed up for life when I started this Air Force journey. Hopefully this e-mail traffic from the Desert Diamonds is a “green shoot” and the tide is turning, but I am certainly not holding my breath.
joe Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
It’s funny how some people commenting on here don’t even understand what the group is about… It’s not about wearing the belts. It’s about leadership taking it way to far about a policy that is extremely low on the priority list on getting the mission done… It’s funny how much were treated like we lived in a cave for our entire lives before we joined the military… just look at the AFN commercials… I see one more “don’t shake your baby commercial” I’m going to freak out!
4FanTrashcanIP Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Mike #75:

As a flyer, I think I can speak for most others that YES, we do understand there are more folks in the AF besides those that “strap on a jet”. But you need to understand that those people exist for one reason: to put sorties in the air (and keep missiles ready and satellites from falling to earth). Sorry, but the USAF does not revolve around the FSS. Are those types of units and the people in them important to a degree? Sure, but last time I checked, the USAF’s mission isn’t filing paperwork or handing out basketballs at the gym.

Second, I am chuckling at your quote “we fix what you broke”. I’ve been flying for a very long time and I have yet to “break” a jet. Sure, I’ve had aircraft come back A3 all the time, but never due to my own negligence. And I know for a fact I’ve come back with an airplane that had been written up for known defects multiple times and it just hadn’t been fixed the right way.

Finally, I think most guys in the ops world would consider maintenance as one and the same overall…when we talk about “support” folks, we’re talking about non-flying related personnel.

I still remember the infamous line spoken at a base in 2003 during the original combat ops of OIF…a services commander stated that things would be much better if it weren’t for the aircrew…sure, but then why would you even be over there?

Doc #79:

You are missing the point. This isn’t about people whining about wearing a belt, or tucking in a shirt. This is about the FOCUS downrange. Take away my internet surfing? Really? I flew 18-20 hour days in searing heat while deployed, not sitting in an office surfing the net. Get real. “Chairforce fat asses”…go ride on a Herk for 18 hours in the heat. I hear it’s a really easy job.
Johnny Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Last time I checked they were not bullet proof. They started making us wear the damn things in Iraq in 2004. We would be told to go full dark and use our NVG’s. But yet we still had are reflected belts on. Can you say easy target. I can see having them at night at home station on the flight line but common really in an AOR.
Matt B Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 3:43 am
Mike Says (November 2nd, 2009 at 7:33 pm): “There’s a reason morale is abysmally low in SW Asia, and it’s because of stupid stuff like this.” Gosh, I could have sworn morale was low because people are deployed in a war zone for 6-12 months, away from their families/friends, working 12 or more hours per day, and without the amenities associated with their homelife.

On a personal note: I damn near hit the ranking SGM at night as he was walking alongside the daily exodus of Uzbek workers. He wasn’t wearing a reflective belt, and I got chewed out for nearly hitting him while he was wearing camouflage on moonless night. Where was my attention? On the mass of UZBEKS walking alongside the road while he walked in the middle of my lane. I was with two other passengers up front, and neither of them saw him. I wear MY reflective belt because I don’t trust drivers of cars. I correct other people who don’t wear thier belts because it is my job as an NCO, but more so because some people just don’t have the sense to protect themselves.
Doc Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 10:40 am
I am not downplaying any effort you or anyone has made toward the MISSION, however, I will match your Herk rides and 18-20 days anytime you wish and multiply it times my 33+ years time in service, 26 of it on the flight line. Kosovo, DSI and DSII. I know how it was and I know how it is now.
Ryan Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Why is the AF complaining? Hell, they don’t even carry weapons over here and they spend 90% of their time in their PT uniform? Oh, that is a rough life. and to think, they live that rough life for their whole 4 month deployment. Suck it up AF.
Generals: Read this! Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Doc, so why haven’t you in your 33+ years ever been a leader and asked the question: Why the F!$% are we doing this?

I follow all orders unless illegal or immoral. These days, though, with a bunch of shit-for-brains ass-kissing, pussified desk jockey “leaders” at the helm, I humbly submit that we follow all orders unless illegal, immoral, or RIDICULOUS. Most CGOs and junior enlisted maintaining and operating the equipment work their butts off and are too professional to have to put up with this passive-aggressive power play leadership. I feel like punching in the nose anyone who invokes a General Patton quote or saying it has to do with safety, good order, and discipline. Doc, maybe it’s time you pull your head out after 33+ years and IMPROVE our combat capability. Enforcing a policy that shouldn’t exist in the first place is HURTING our capability by showing the force how stupid our “leadership” is and how unfocused they are on COMBAT OPERATIONS.

Wearing reflective belts indoors=ridiculous
Wearing reflective belts during the day (inclement weather or not)=ridiculous
Wearing reflective belts at all=ridiculous (how did I manage to survive 33+ years of life without a reflective belt? Just darn lucky I guess!)
Wing commanders and vice commanders writing reflective belt enforcement policy=ridiculous
People being denied food or use of a toilet for not having a belt on=ridiculous
Combat squadron commanders patrolling areas to find reflective belt offenders=ridiculous
Not having adequate living and showering facilities while colonels focus on whether or not people wear reflective belts=ridiculous
Civilian contractors using reflective belt gestapo enforcement= ridiculous
MAJCOM and HAF IGs writing reflective belt discrepancies into CORI reports=ridiculous
Wings focusing on reflective belt wear during CORIs=ridiculous
Chow halls being closed when aircrew land at O’Dark Thirty, but having numerous SNCOs running around harping about reflective belts=ridiculous
The Marine Corps laughing at our never ending stubbornness at enforcing ridiculous policies=shameful and embarrassing
A1C Roe Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
I just got back from Tech School at Sheppard AFB. If I went outside on the base and it was dark enough for the street lights to come on then I had to wear my reflective belt. I don’t see the problems with wearing a 1 oz. piece of material. We also had to wear it with our PT uniforms when we would run. It’s not a big deal so suck it up, at least act like you are in the military, and get over it.
Kevin Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I’m all for wearing the reflective belt. Out here on the FL the lights aren’t bright enough to see very far. The guys who have to push their tool boxes and equipment all over the line are using the same route the vehicles use. They do help out here. My gripe is that the Heath is requiring personnel in PT gear (shorts) to wear them even on the running track. Come on now! Did the military waste all that cash in the gear to have the reflective material sewn into it? I hope they don’t take this as an idea to make the entire PT gear reflective. Drivers would get distracted by the “shiney” suit and get into an accident. Man if I do have to wear it on my PT test, I hope it don’t cut down on my run time due to wind resistance.
loady Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Doc post #83: I thank you for your service but you still fail to understand what is happening. This isn’t about measuring penis size or how many conflicts we served during. I am sure this board is full of many folks that don’t need to mention their contributions to the greater good as a gauge of their manhood. This is about our leadership forgetting the mission and focusing too much of their time on the “big picture.” I am presently deployed and I am saddened when I hear the daily stories of Shirt buffoonery concerning rules that distract from what is really important. I have witnessed this senseless behavior on numerous occasions and I feel there are many other issues that we can spend time on rather than turning away a hungry person from the chow hall for not having a reflective belt.
4FanTrashcanIP Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
33+ years versus my 18 years of service…at that point it doesn’t really matter. I’m not a young kid and neither are you. The point is I’ve seen it deteriorate from the days when we spent our time concerned with threats, MC rates and just plain ‘ol getting the mission done, to today’s circus where all you hear about is PT “uniform” wear, reflective belts and other insane administrativa like refusing latrine usage to alerted aircrew because they are playing “war” during an exercise in a forward deployed location. Mission accomplishment seems secondary these days. It’s as if they just assume it’ll get done regardless of where their leadership “focus” lies. Luckily it does get done, but no thanks to the attitude that exists there.

FWIW, in Desert Storm, would anyone have heard of a first shirt marching into an aircrew dorm during crew rest and yelling at O-3s and O-4s and ordering them to mop the floor, etc? It happened a few rotations back. Everyone was so shocked (the dorm really wasn’t that dirty) they didn’t realize some E-7 was in there yelling at a bunch of FGOs.

I have lots of examples of guys trying to hack the mission getting held back, denied food or otherwise harassed with petty BS. We’re our own worst enemy over there. The Facebook group reflects a growing frustration.
TI Lover Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
I spent a year in Iraq serving with some quality people. Among that group were some misguided folks from Lackland who thought it was more important to have the right size socks on or the correct uniform on while going to the cadillac at 0300 (we lived in a walled in compound).

These same people thought it was fine to do perfectly acceptable things like jump a truck across a street nearly causing an accident with a semi, go out and play with a UXO that had landed about 50 yards from our compound, take pictures of themselves standing in the elevated bucket of a front end loader, or impersonate a SNCO while in PT gear at the DFAC. These people were all loved by thier 05 who wouldn’t have known real danger if it jumped up and smacked him in the face.

These are the people training new Airmen. Gotta love ‘em.
Dave Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
My two cents. It’s sad and embarrassing that it has come to this. However, This has been a long time coming. Ever since Kobar Towers the AF has become hyper risk-averse. It will take a generation to weed out this kind of BS. I remember the days when the wing cc would personally meet every returning deployed aircraft on the flight line with kegs of beer and the words “well done” from him were enough to motivate an airman. Dumb ideas have always been around. But, the difference today is that the Chiefs who used to weed out this kind of crap are the driver behind it or else don’t have the stones to stand up and stop it. 22 years in and my paperwork is dropped!
Mike Says:
November 7th, 2009 at 12:58 am
I think many people (including S&S and AF Times) are missing the point here.

This is NOT about the reflective belts themselves. The RBs are just the most visible (literally and figuratively) aspect of leadership’s complete and total loss of focus at our deployed locations.

This kind of crap (RBs, tucked PT shirts, etc) would be considered ridiculous queep at in-garrison locations. The fact that they are such big issues at DEPLOYED locations is downright criminal. This is a reflection on just how bad and out of touch leadership has gotten.

Morale at deployed locations should be higher than anywhere else in the WORLD. It’s the place where airmen go to do their real JOB. It’s not training, it’s the real effing deal. Instead, morale is abysmally low there. It’s not because of the work or the hours. EVERYONE there puts in 12-18 hour shifts (well, except finance, they’re only open 9-5 even in the AOR). Nobody gripes about the hours… it’s almost a point of pride. People gripe about all the non-job related queep that goes on. I tell you what, NOTHING raises my morale like going to the chow hall after a 15 hour combat sortie, only to be yelled at by some peckerweed SNCO because my PT shirt I put on after peeling off my sweat soaked flight suit wasn’t tucked in “tight enough”. Those people aren’t “leaders”. They are the anchor holding back our airmen, and the driving force behind the exodus of poor retention.
John Says:
November 7th, 2009 at 6:18 am
People say if it prevents one accident it’s worth it, then why aren’t we all wearing helmets and padding and removing all sharp edges from everything, you have to draw a line somewhere! If you are so stupid that you walk out in front of a car while wearing camo in the pitch black of night then we probably don’t want you in the military to begin with!
A1C HEBERT Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
I am currently TDY in scotland and we have to wear big, ugly and yellow reflective vest. I am now in what we call the new Air Force, but we have new airmen that complain as if they pioneered this Air Force, which I this is a load of crap. When did Airmen start making up decisions for commanders. I am shocked that the regs like our freedoms is slowly on a downward spiral to. I guess people think that they are either in Afghanistan or Iraq. Unlike all things in the Ari Force there is a rule and I must say that this one saved me when I was almost hit by a car. So, therefore here is the soultion if it saves people leave it there for the people, I have never heard of anyone getting killed wearing a reflective belt.
Crusty O-5 Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Doc, by your comments you have proven you don’t know how it was nor know how it is now. I’ll take my 5,000+ flying hours over your 33+ years of clueless boot-licking any day. If you can’t get a person to do their job if you can’t get them to wear the uniform properly, then explain to me how Robin Olds was able to lead Operation Bolo (do you even know what that was?) while sporting a handle-bar mustache. The PT gear is not a uniform and nor should it! A reflective belt is not part of the uniform! The issue isn’t this though. The issue is that the leadership at Base X is focused on queep while the people doing/flying the actual mission are not being adequately supported. To all those in maintenance, service, and other support jobs who gladly support the mission with your hard work; thank you from the bottom of my heart. To all of you running around making sure shirts are tucked, belts are worn, and denying services to those deployed; go to Hell, you are not wanted nor helpful. I’ll give you SNCO’s one warning. If you dare stop this O-5 for some perceived infraction, you better be at attention while addressing me and be immaculately dressed or you will get the ass-chewing of your life. Also, I better not observe you treating any other officer with disrespect. That is all.
sam Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
to crusty 0-5, post #98: Well said sir, this CGO wishes there were more like you who let me hack the mission uninterrupted by queep. And A1C Roe, post #89, you’re in tech school and new to the military. How about waiting to voice your opinions until you have some experience?
Jon Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
As a ten year Air Force pilot about ready to end his commitment and possibly active duty, issues like this only make me doubt our leadership’s ability to concentrate on the mission and continue my commitment to their policies. In case anyone has read the “Airman’s Creed”, our mission is to “fly, fight, win” yet leadership is more concerned about their ego. Our Air Force has lost touch with this most basic mission.

Second, the Air Force support structure justifies their job rather than actually working with the airmen. How many times do I have to explain to finance that aircrew fly planes across many countries and time zones? Why does it take 2 hours to inprocess the base every time I return when I just left it the day before?

Yes, I may seem like another whining pilot, but when you have been entrusted with a $200 million aircraft and crew, I have the right to speak. Since 9/11 I have seen this Air Force change for the worse. SNCO’s used to realize that aircrews would fly without patches, for good reason, but now they are more concerned about denying food for alerted airmen in the middle of a mission only because of their ego. Let’s stop this and get back to the basics. FLY, FIGHT, WIN… That’s what I joined for.

p.s. I am keeping these blogs so when my CC asks me why I am leaving Active Duty, I will show him a collage of failed leadership at the highest levels.
Doc Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Crusty, Since you want to get personal “SIR”, My guys do their job and wear their uniform properly. The two are not mutually exclusive. I also insist my guys treat all officers with respect, and they do, as do I. If you are interested in giving me the ass crewing of my life, you missed the boat, I’ve already had it, by someone several paygrades higher than you.
Douglas Says:
December 1st, 2009 at 12:04 pm
To those who relate the motorcycle headlight issue to the reflective belts: apples and oranges. And as for motorcycle lights saving lives…wrong. The Hurt report, which is considered the most comprehensive MC report ever done, found that headlights DID NOT help. They, in fact, did the opposite and caused more incidents. This drove the European countries to have no daytime running lights on MCs and, contrary to American MC requirements, mandate an off position for the switch. Get your facts straight instead of regurgitating things you heard somewhere.

And as for those touting the reflective belt’s great contribution to safety, you should be wearing a helmet all day every day, similar to the one you wore as a child. Better yet, live your lives inside a plastic bubble where you are safe…never leave the house!

A combat zone is NOT the place to push an agenda. We wear camouflage uniforms and contrast that with a reflective belt? Idiotic. We might as well wear orange prison jump suits. If an airmen in his MOPP gear was hit, it happened because he was in the road where he shouldn’t have been. Reflective belts do not replace brain functionality or intellegence.

Then, deny your troops sustenance for failure to wear their reflective belts INSIDE a chow hall (which is located behind concrete barriers, concrete walls and doors). Yes, I am sure the driver that ran through the barriers and the walls would suddenly swerve as they realized they were about to hit someone sitting at a table eating.

The Deid is out of control and if leadership, excuse me…managers, there think they have an ounce of respect from their troops they need to ask one that has the balls to tell them the truth…they are the laughing stock in multiple services from multiple countries.
James Says:
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:53 am
I love that if I take mine off, it makes me invisible and the E-6’s and above can’t see me anymore. My work gets done much more effectively that way.
Mathew Says:
December 3rd, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Reflective belts in my opinion are ok on the flightline, which can be a very busy place at night or day for that matter. When you forget yout reflective belt and someone wants to shake you down for it, it is a silly thing. Why is it required everywhere in uniform in the hours of darkness? Don’t most of us have common sense?
Brock Says:
December 4th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
I just read the recent article on the AF Times about the reflective belts and I got a good laugh out it! I wonder how they all survived without a reflective belt until 2004 when the policy actually took effect. The whole policy is crap. Certain areas is understandable and tolerable, but how did the Air Force go on and get the mission done in previous without wearing them. Sure, you can think that they save lives, but if your dumb enough to get hit by a vehicle, you probably shouldn’t be in the Force. Post 102, I totally agree with you 100% Couple more years of putting up with this crap and hopefully they will be retired so a new generation of managers can do better. Oh, by the way, I got yelled at by a SNCO walking into the chall hall because I didn’t have it on coming through the door. haha. It was probably because the belts aren’t necessary even though the food line had heavy traffic.
Big Bad Capt Says:
February 4th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
Guys, if you don’t like it…get out of the military. If you don’t like someone telling you to do something (regardless of how stupid), again do your time and get your discharge.

Until then, shut up and color…and move on.

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